Are you an idiot, Rob Moshein, or just an idiot?
Not so long ago a bunch of us who were minding our own P's and Q's freely expressing our opinion on the "LEGENDS FORUM" a history forum which was operated by a real nice lady from Austin, Texas who in the end like so many was accused by Atchison/Moshein and friends alike as being no other than Oma Hamou herself.
The Legends forum discussed all aspects of Russian history including the controversy surrounding Anna Anderson & the Grand Duchess Anastasia Romanov and of course our disdain for the daily attacks allowed on Atchison own Russian history forum. This blog and similar blogs to it was created in part because Rob Moshein and his friends hijacked our forum and turned it into a place where they could daily stalk and harass Hamou and those who defended her.
Again, as the respected historian/author Peter Kurth asked Moshein, we too ask, “…are you an idiot, Rob, or just an idiot?…”
Let’s recap:
On "Legends" a thread was specifically created to discuss Atchison's Alexander Palace Time machine Forum Mike Newson posted on June 23, 2006:
My, Oh My! Lions and Tigers and Bears
(Not you agrBear )
It seems that we who post and read in this thread are all still very tender under the skin from our shared experiences and encounters with people associated with the APTM. So when Susan and Alix H both came out of the blue and shot arrows at us. (Neither bothered to say, “Hi, this is me...” They just attacked, Susan attacked Michael G, and Alix H basically laid into the rest of us, at least those of us who post on this thread.) Anyway, after seeing what was happening I decided to go back to post one on this thread which started with RealAnastasia saying, “Today, I visited the "Palace Forums" where I have a message defending Bear very politely and wishing all people a Merry Christmas....and the answers that I found were simply amazing. Plenty of hate and scorn.” It seems to me that the APTM Forum is very central to all of us, even if our experiences have not been favorable. In response to RealAnastasia being attacked, LyliaM said, “I just reviewed the posts and I don't even know what to say. Except that you did NOTHING WHATSOEVER to deserve such treatment. The attacks really are outrageous. They're rude in and of themselves (and totally unprovoked as well.)” It was suggested that she report the abuse to the APTM Forum Administrator (FA) and she responded, "I'm a little afraid to PM FA, for Finnelly did it, and it was she who was banned. You know how things work in the Palace Forums.” And yes some negative words were used to describe one person there according to how they felt about this person’s behavior, when LyliaM said, “I feel that there is something seriously wrong with the FA. His behavior demonstrates -- to me, anyway -- an excessive degree of paranoia and hostility bordering on the delusional.” This experience was not unique, it seems that many have had similar experiences, and as far as I know stating a personal experience is not slanderous. For example elena maria vidal said, "I was just reading how rude they all were to Versoix, especially the Forum Administrator. It is like dealing with some totalitarian regime....”
In general most people here seem to feel that their personal experience there at the APTM was not favorable, as in when LyliaM said, “My feeling is that some of those people are undersocialized, bored shut-ins who enjoy an illusory sense of knowledge and power by being self-styled AA "experts." I find the chummy way they support one another, once it's clear "which side" they're on, pretty amusing. If your junior-high-school experience was too short for your liking, visit the AP Survivors Board and you'll feel like you're in seventh grade all over again!” Elena maria vidal expressed her feelings about APTM when she said, “So many of the other threads have a BAD vibe, … ; people are getting SO nasty, one cannot discuss anything in an intelligent manner. I do not mind if people disagree with me or prove me wrong, because I am there to learn, but some people are SO nasty and condescending.” What is happening now was somewhat explained when LyliaM said, “My husband, who has observed my anger at the rudeness and disinformation tolerated on the Survivors threads, explained to me that (this) sort of thing tends to happen once online groups exceed a certain number of members. … I definitely agree that the nastiness has escalated in other places on the Palace site, and I think that it must be due to ineffective monitoring. The sad reality is that most kind and courteous folks will walk away from a site once it degenerates past a certain point, leaving the creeps to claim the place for themselves. … According to my husband's statistical analysis, once we get an additional 20 or so members here . . . watch out!” Which is what seems to be happening, although until recently I think we were all getting over things and healing until the scabs were ripped off. So here we go again…
I think Penny (Penny Wilson) best expressed her feeling and experiences when she said, “...it's important to remember that the AP site is heavily agendized. The behavior of Bob and Rob -- and especially Rob -- is not surprising to those who have known them for a long time. They simply are what they are -- take them or leave them. …The bottom line is that you will not fit in with them unless you agree with their every dictation about the Romanovs; and if you do not fit in with them, they will do what is in their power to damage you.
Usually, this sort of damage is small potatoes, like being banned from their web site, but I know of one historian who abandoned a book project rather than deal with the slings and arrows of Bob and Rob.” In effect as she said about them at a later point, “Believe our way, or we'll get rid of you." She continued to express her feeling when she said, “…My gut feeling is that all this comes down to their need to "own" the Nicholas and Alexandra part of Romanov history; they seem to have a ridiculous need to be the "last word" on this subject.”
It was interesting to learn about the control exerted on many of us as in when RealAnastasia said about her experience on the APTM with respect to Penny, “They lied to me about you, Penny, and pushed me to be rude to you. Annie said that, "all people know that Penny is a paranoiac person"...How can she have been so unrespectful of an historian who had celebrated published works all around the world? How can she be so liar? I'm sincerely disgusted.” LyliaM also expressed her feelings, “I feel hurt and outraged for the good people who have been libeled there, and it's just not worth it to me. Add to that the info that Penny has shared with us, and it all adds up to a very spiritually blighted site. It's like the buzzards are still picking over the bones, trying to figure how to co-opt Russian history and benefit from it.”
LyliaM also noticed this same tendency when she said, “…I noticed another controlling and suppressive episode on the "rape" thread in the Last Chapter Forum: Rob says that Bob says that there is no evidence to support a conclusion of anything at all happening on board the Rus, and that this should be enough to end the conversation. From my experience several times, if anyone continues to discuss it, they could get a personal email from Rob saying that, "Bob is getting sick to his stomach over this. Please stop."
There's no sort of intellectual debate going on at that place -- just mudslinging for the benefit of "the Gulag." Completely defamatory and unsubstantiated accusations are being made.
…doesn't this information jibe with everything you've learned about those guys through your own interaction with them? They talk out of both sides of their mouths at once. They are dishonest; they are control freaks; they feel a bizarre sense of ownership over this affair; they twist people's words; they denigrate and insult those who merely speak logic. Frankly, the only explanation that I can (sort of) come up with for their behavior IS that Bob and Rob truly feel that they have been ordained by "higher powers" to enlighten Planet Earth as to the "truth" about AA.
I had a brief (but alarming) brush with a religious cult while in law school, and those people demonstrated the same scary belief that they, and they ALONE, were recipients of God's truth. They also employed similar tactics to keep people in line and keep the self-justification machine chugging along.”
At one point Penny commented that, “Time and again, I have heard that Bob "knows" that AM was not GDA for various arcane reasons: That he has been in spiritual communication with Olga and Alexandra and both have assured him that Anastasia was safely with them; that AM simply did not present herself or live as they imagined a Russian Grand Duchess would; and since he saw the bones in Ekaterinburg, Bob has been sure that Anastasia was among them because his "artist's eye" recognized her skull.
… And everyone who has known Bob for any length of time knows that he chats to Olga and Alix -- I don't even recall who told me, but it was several years ago. I asked a couple of people if he was kidding, and I was told, "Oh, no -- Bob's quite sure that those two speak directly to him." I have that email still, so this is a direct quote. Versoix responded, “Penny, if this is for real, it's worse than crazy. It's insulting and possibly sacrilegious.
Alexandra and Olga are canonized saints of my church. In the Orthodox tradition, the idea that saints and angels, even the most holy Mother of God, and even beyond that the Lord Jesus Christ Himself, sometimes appear to living people or otherwise speak directly to them, is recognized as true. But this happens only to very special people, people of quite extraordinary holiness ~who are not seeking such experiences~, and who, historically, have been ~quite reluctant to talk about them~.
In fact, one of the ways the church judges whether visionaries are telling the truth is by taking the measure of these people as Christians, the measure of the way they live their lives, the faith, hope and love they show, the humility they show, etc.
In other words, my first reaction to any "normal" person who claimed to be talking to saints would be outrage -- outrage that by these claims the person was dishonoring the name of the saint. My outrage would dissipate instantly if it became obvious to me that the person was psychotic.” And Penny responded back with, “I do NOT believe that Bob has visitations from Alix and Olga; nor do I think that he is psychotic. I think he's obsessed, and that this obsession has joined his delusions of grandeur to create -- consciously or not -- this sort of pseudo-religious ("religious" with a small "r," if you get my meaning) aura about him, as though he is a sort of paranormal lion at the Romanov gate.” Michael G. also seems to have experienced the same things. He said, “I guess they want to "control" for use of a better word, history, and how it is viewed. It is truly sad when such parasitic individuals as Atchison and Moshein and their court of sycophants, try to make themselves rich off of history, they steal artifacts from the palace, and they besmirch good people such as Greg & Penny and their stellar work. I wonder how many of those fools have contributed money to these two and their forum?
And how many of them have gotten rooked or booted off when they are no longer in favor?”
All of which I take to be people’s personal experiences and impressions as to what they have experienced at or because of the APTM. And while at first it seems that people’s experiences ruled the posts here we see a slight change when we first heard about Oma Hamou on Feb 04, 2006 (My experience here started on Mar 10, 2006) when Penny reported that she had found a website http://www.bobatchison.co.uk/ about Bob from someone’s rapidly deleted post on APTM. Penny said, “I don't know what's true and what's not true on that site, though I have been hearing a lot of it for several years from people involved -- or formerly involved -- with both sides. Initially, I gave Rob and Bob the benefit of the doubt, because I know them better than Oma, whom I don't know at all -- but after seeing them in action on the AP Boards -- in how they treat people, and in how they censor ideas and ban discussion in an attempt to "control" Russian history and the form in which it is presented to the students who might come to their site to learn -- well... I am inclined to give them a whole lot less benefit of that doubt.” I have to agree with Tali when she said, “What happened in the situation surrounding the owners of the Alexander Palace Time Machine and Ms. Hamou could very well happen to any of us ~ it is a lesson for all of us ~ there are many cults and cult like figures which in the last years have developed surrounding Nicholas II ~ these kind of people need our prayers because they are lost! “
Maryanne had a major negative experience with the APTM and it’s principles when she reported to us that she had visited this site. http://www.bobatchison.co.uk/ She said, [i]“Saturday with nothing to do I spent the entire afternoon reading Sean’s website on Bob and them. …
Getting back to Sean’s site. I took lots of notes because there are lots of links and some things made me want to ask Bob himself what’s true and not true. For me Bob (until yesterday) he's always been easy to talk too sometimes yes he can be cagey and even a grumpy bear but if I’ve ever had a question about something relating to Nicholas and Alexandra he usually gave me an answer.
Yesterday, FA (Rob) wrote: “…Bob is more concerned with accuracy than his ego. If evidence shows he made a mistake, he is the first to recognize it and be glad of the corrections. I've seen it a hundred times.
…Bob said the links to the documents some of them were fake and the person he was in a lawsuit with was trying to humiliate him cause he said he won and she lost. I thought ok, yes I bought his answer cause I don't know but some of the things that his attorney filed and he said things I remember from his emails to me weren't true and when I said, "But Bob I remember you sent me an email that said something different" he got mad at me and told me that he can see that I am not his friend and I am only there to cause him problems. All I wanted to know was the truth. He threatened to call my parents and involve them and out of his paranoia and my surprise he did!”
LyliaM had this reaction to Maryanne’s experience when she said, “Bob clearly has some major problems and what he did was an incredible violation on many different levels. People with nothing to hide don't behave as he did. I feel sorry for him, because he's on a very bad path that's not going to lead him to enlightenment, but I am also very angered by the innocent people he's hurting in his egomania. I find the way he instantly turned on you when you confronted him with his own words very chilling. He's a sick man, and I would steer clear of him,”
About this point in time I started to post in this thread and I said about what I had seen here, “So far I have seen two basic sources of information backing the things that have been said about Rob, Bob and Company. One is the this-is-what-happened-to-me source of information. And the Second is, this is what I found published in court documents regarding Oma and Bob. Given these sources, well Bob can talk until he is blue in the face and won’t get anywhere in a court. Much of what has been said I personally have experienced also, just not in the APTM forum. http://www.omahamou.com/ there right along with Oma’s (Well OK, so it is inside her exhibits, still you can go read it if you want to. Note: Go to the “NEWS” section.) My point is that one cannot sue over this-is-what-happened-to-me, as it is your own personal experience. Now drawing conclusions might be a problem. This is what Rob and Bob did against Oma, they were not happy with just stating this-is-the-facts according to this court record or that. Or this is what we have heard from this source or that. They drew their own conclusions and published those as fact. Which is where they opened themselves up for trouble.”
Still is seems that most of us congregated here in this thread because of shared experiences and similar trauma. Penny seems to have expressed best and first when she said, “I think it's been natural to sort of congregate and share traveler's tales about that place.” Elena maria vidal, agreed when she said, ”I do think we all needed to vent a little about the AP boards and this has been a safe place to do it, because some of us have been really hurt there.” As did LyliaM with, “I do, … feel that new posters, who have generally come here after having been abused "over there," have an understandable need to express their frustration, hurt and outrage to people they know will understand. So, I say, let new members vent initially . . .” The problem is that we have had such a flood of new people that there has been no chance for anything else but healing. Not that Susan’s attack on Michael G, helped and Alix H, you could have come in a bit more softly with an introduction rather than what seemed to be an attack. Justin seems to agree also by saying, “…what have we let our self into by expressing our frustrations and our experiences from certain people there? That is, How do we know it is safe to express ourselves here, is there any place that they can not reach? I am learning that once a lie is created it has no way to live unless it grows even bigger, that the only way to cover up a lie is to hide it with an even bigger one. As I learn about the capacity and willingness of some to use lies as a weapon, well I wonder is there any place that one is safe to express a free and open opinion involving the Romanovs? … all the wounded are gathering in safe havens such as this forum to lick our wounds and heal…”
Yes I found some name calling, but not all that much, things such as “idiotic and insulting (and worthless) thread” and “I cannot believe you are an admin. You are the most UNPROFESSIONAL admin ever, and you truly suck at your job.” Or “classless, close-minded little folks whose lives revolve around visiting the site 500 times a day to ridicule and denigrate others, after having read a few books that they can't even be troubled to cite correctly.” But considering that this is either quoting what was said to someone, or expressing personal feelings in response to something, well words expressed in reaction are judged by courts much less harshly than cold cool deliberate slander.
As to if this is slanderous, well Keith seems to have wrapped that up with this comment, “Due to some wonderful investigative journalists and private investigators, everything either Bob or Rob said to anyone, (and under every name he or Rob hid behind), about Oma was documented, researched and tracked. So, friends. After a long spell of not really knowing who to trust or what to reveal I am now donning the war cry of Londoners and the world with respect to terrorism and encouraging others to come back to post here without fear.” And I agree with Penny when she said, “I do understand the need to "recover" a bit and to share traveler's tales of that place -- but I think it important not to wallow in it.” Which seems to bring us to the present time.
Well except that while I was reading all the old stuff, new stuff popped up. It really seems that a tender point has been found judging from all the recent posts. And while I can agree with Alix H in principle I don’t find that the responses and comments here were all that hateful in consideration of shared experiences. Expressions of personal experiences and feelings over those experiences, Yes, but I do not find carefully thought out expressions of hate toward anyone. Frustrations galore, certainly, however, I suspect that it all has to do with your point of view. I would expect that friends of Bob and Rob would not look at this at all kindly, and would in fact expect them to react as Alix H has, and the fact that Alix H first read this thread and posted here seems to confirm that possibility. That one is a friend of Rob or Bob is certainly not a crime in any sense of the word, everyone needs friends. And I see no reason that such a person could not be welcomed here as this is a place where more than one point of view can be tolerated. But then again I would expect that before judging that one would research why what was said, was said. I hope that it was just shock that brought out Alix’s initial comments and that meaningful dialog and an exchange of points of view could still occur. Try putting yourself in to the mindset of those who were hurt and came here for healing; is it any wonder that they expressed feelings of frustration and outrage?
People’s personal experiences are not slanderous, although their experiences may not be ones that you want to hear. Still they are that persons experiences, and as such very important to that person, and the expressing of them to a sympathetic audience is highly therapeutic to all concerned. As such I feel that those who need this therapy can and should continue to express themselves here in this part of the forum. I see no reason why what happens here should be considered a detraction from the rest of the site, which I am still wading through, and still do not have a real opinion on, other than vague romantic wishes, but I am learning. But rather like an activity that is going on in one part of town, while you with a different need and interest experience a totally different activity clear across town. So for those who want more discussion of Anastasia, well there are threads for that, for those who need to heal, then this is where you need to be until you heal.
The Legends forum discussed all aspects of Russian history including the controversy surrounding Anna Anderson & the Grand Duchess Anastasia Romanov and of course our disdain for the daily attacks allowed on Atchison own Russian history forum. This blog and similar blogs to it was created in part because Rob Moshein and his friends hijacked our forum and turned it into a place where they could daily stalk and harass Hamou and those who defended her.
Again, as the respected historian/author Peter Kurth asked Moshein, we too ask, “…are you an idiot, Rob, or just an idiot?…”
Let’s recap:
On "Legends" a thread was specifically created to discuss Atchison's Alexander Palace Time machine Forum Mike Newson posted on June 23, 2006:
My, Oh My! Lions and Tigers and Bears
(Not you agrBear )
It seems that we who post and read in this thread are all still very tender under the skin from our shared experiences and encounters with people associated with the APTM. So when Susan and Alix H both came out of the blue and shot arrows at us. (Neither bothered to say, “Hi, this is me...” They just attacked, Susan attacked Michael G, and Alix H basically laid into the rest of us, at least those of us who post on this thread.) Anyway, after seeing what was happening I decided to go back to post one on this thread which started with RealAnastasia saying, “Today, I visited the "Palace Forums" where I have a message defending Bear very politely and wishing all people a Merry Christmas....and the answers that I found were simply amazing. Plenty of hate and scorn.” It seems to me that the APTM Forum is very central to all of us, even if our experiences have not been favorable. In response to RealAnastasia being attacked, LyliaM said, “I just reviewed the posts and I don't even know what to say. Except that you did NOTHING WHATSOEVER to deserve such treatment. The attacks really are outrageous. They're rude in and of themselves (and totally unprovoked as well.)” It was suggested that she report the abuse to the APTM Forum Administrator (FA) and she responded, "I'm a little afraid to PM FA, for Finnelly did it, and it was she who was banned. You know how things work in the Palace Forums.” And yes some negative words were used to describe one person there according to how they felt about this person’s behavior, when LyliaM said, “I feel that there is something seriously wrong with the FA. His behavior demonstrates -- to me, anyway -- an excessive degree of paranoia and hostility bordering on the delusional.” This experience was not unique, it seems that many have had similar experiences, and as far as I know stating a personal experience is not slanderous. For example elena maria vidal said, "I was just reading how rude they all were to Versoix, especially the Forum Administrator. It is like dealing with some totalitarian regime....”
In general most people here seem to feel that their personal experience there at the APTM was not favorable, as in when LyliaM said, “My feeling is that some of those people are undersocialized, bored shut-ins who enjoy an illusory sense of knowledge and power by being self-styled AA "experts." I find the chummy way they support one another, once it's clear "which side" they're on, pretty amusing. If your junior-high-school experience was too short for your liking, visit the AP Survivors Board and you'll feel like you're in seventh grade all over again!” Elena maria vidal expressed her feelings about APTM when she said, “So many of the other threads have a BAD vibe, … ; people are getting SO nasty, one cannot discuss anything in an intelligent manner. I do not mind if people disagree with me or prove me wrong, because I am there to learn, but some people are SO nasty and condescending.” What is happening now was somewhat explained when LyliaM said, “My husband, who has observed my anger at the rudeness and disinformation tolerated on the Survivors threads, explained to me that (this) sort of thing tends to happen once online groups exceed a certain number of members. … I definitely agree that the nastiness has escalated in other places on the Palace site, and I think that it must be due to ineffective monitoring. The sad reality is that most kind and courteous folks will walk away from a site once it degenerates past a certain point, leaving the creeps to claim the place for themselves. … According to my husband's statistical analysis, once we get an additional 20 or so members here . . . watch out!” Which is what seems to be happening, although until recently I think we were all getting over things and healing until the scabs were ripped off. So here we go again…
I think Penny (Penny Wilson) best expressed her feeling and experiences when she said, “...it's important to remember that the AP site is heavily agendized. The behavior of Bob and Rob -- and especially Rob -- is not surprising to those who have known them for a long time. They simply are what they are -- take them or leave them. …The bottom line is that you will not fit in with them unless you agree with their every dictation about the Romanovs; and if you do not fit in with them, they will do what is in their power to damage you.
Usually, this sort of damage is small potatoes, like being banned from their web site, but I know of one historian who abandoned a book project rather than deal with the slings and arrows of Bob and Rob.” In effect as she said about them at a later point, “Believe our way, or we'll get rid of you." She continued to express her feeling when she said, “…My gut feeling is that all this comes down to their need to "own" the Nicholas and Alexandra part of Romanov history; they seem to have a ridiculous need to be the "last word" on this subject.”
It was interesting to learn about the control exerted on many of us as in when RealAnastasia said about her experience on the APTM with respect to Penny, “They lied to me about you, Penny, and pushed me to be rude to you. Annie said that, "all people know that Penny is a paranoiac person"...How can she have been so unrespectful of an historian who had celebrated published works all around the world? How can she be so liar? I'm sincerely disgusted.” LyliaM also expressed her feelings, “I feel hurt and outraged for the good people who have been libeled there, and it's just not worth it to me. Add to that the info that Penny has shared with us, and it all adds up to a very spiritually blighted site. It's like the buzzards are still picking over the bones, trying to figure how to co-opt Russian history and benefit from it.”
LyliaM also noticed this same tendency when she said, “…I noticed another controlling and suppressive episode on the "rape" thread in the Last Chapter Forum: Rob says that Bob says that there is no evidence to support a conclusion of anything at all happening on board the Rus, and that this should be enough to end the conversation. From my experience several times, if anyone continues to discuss it, they could get a personal email from Rob saying that, "Bob is getting sick to his stomach over this. Please stop."
There's no sort of intellectual debate going on at that place -- just mudslinging for the benefit of "the Gulag." Completely defamatory and unsubstantiated accusations are being made.
…doesn't this information jibe with everything you've learned about those guys through your own interaction with them? They talk out of both sides of their mouths at once. They are dishonest; they are control freaks; they feel a bizarre sense of ownership over this affair; they twist people's words; they denigrate and insult those who merely speak logic. Frankly, the only explanation that I can (sort of) come up with for their behavior IS that Bob and Rob truly feel that they have been ordained by "higher powers" to enlighten Planet Earth as to the "truth" about AA.
I had a brief (but alarming) brush with a religious cult while in law school, and those people demonstrated the same scary belief that they, and they ALONE, were recipients of God's truth. They also employed similar tactics to keep people in line and keep the self-justification machine chugging along.”
At one point Penny commented that, “Time and again, I have heard that Bob "knows" that AM was not GDA for various arcane reasons: That he has been in spiritual communication with Olga and Alexandra and both have assured him that Anastasia was safely with them; that AM simply did not present herself or live as they imagined a Russian Grand Duchess would; and since he saw the bones in Ekaterinburg, Bob has been sure that Anastasia was among them because his "artist's eye" recognized her skull.
… And everyone who has known Bob for any length of time knows that he chats to Olga and Alix -- I don't even recall who told me, but it was several years ago. I asked a couple of people if he was kidding, and I was told, "Oh, no -- Bob's quite sure that those two speak directly to him." I have that email still, so this is a direct quote. Versoix responded, “Penny, if this is for real, it's worse than crazy. It's insulting and possibly sacrilegious.
Alexandra and Olga are canonized saints of my church. In the Orthodox tradition, the idea that saints and angels, even the most holy Mother of God, and even beyond that the Lord Jesus Christ Himself, sometimes appear to living people or otherwise speak directly to them, is recognized as true. But this happens only to very special people, people of quite extraordinary holiness ~who are not seeking such experiences~, and who, historically, have been ~quite reluctant to talk about them~.
In fact, one of the ways the church judges whether visionaries are telling the truth is by taking the measure of these people as Christians, the measure of the way they live their lives, the faith, hope and love they show, the humility they show, etc.
In other words, my first reaction to any "normal" person who claimed to be talking to saints would be outrage -- outrage that by these claims the person was dishonoring the name of the saint. My outrage would dissipate instantly if it became obvious to me that the person was psychotic.” And Penny responded back with, “I do NOT believe that Bob has visitations from Alix and Olga; nor do I think that he is psychotic. I think he's obsessed, and that this obsession has joined his delusions of grandeur to create -- consciously or not -- this sort of pseudo-religious ("religious" with a small "r," if you get my meaning) aura about him, as though he is a sort of paranormal lion at the Romanov gate.” Michael G. also seems to have experienced the same things. He said, “I guess they want to "control" for use of a better word, history, and how it is viewed. It is truly sad when such parasitic individuals as Atchison and Moshein and their court of sycophants, try to make themselves rich off of history, they steal artifacts from the palace, and they besmirch good people such as Greg & Penny and their stellar work. I wonder how many of those fools have contributed money to these two and their forum?
And how many of them have gotten rooked or booted off when they are no longer in favor?”
All of which I take to be people’s personal experiences and impressions as to what they have experienced at or because of the APTM. And while at first it seems that people’s experiences ruled the posts here we see a slight change when we first heard about Oma Hamou on Feb 04, 2006 (My experience here started on Mar 10, 2006) when Penny reported that she had found a website http://www.bobatchison.co.uk/ about Bob from someone’s rapidly deleted post on APTM. Penny said, “I don't know what's true and what's not true on that site, though I have been hearing a lot of it for several years from people involved -- or formerly involved -- with both sides. Initially, I gave Rob and Bob the benefit of the doubt, because I know them better than Oma, whom I don't know at all -- but after seeing them in action on the AP Boards -- in how they treat people, and in how they censor ideas and ban discussion in an attempt to "control" Russian history and the form in which it is presented to the students who might come to their site to learn -- well... I am inclined to give them a whole lot less benefit of that doubt.” I have to agree with Tali when she said, “What happened in the situation surrounding the owners of the Alexander Palace Time Machine and Ms. Hamou could very well happen to any of us ~ it is a lesson for all of us ~ there are many cults and cult like figures which in the last years have developed surrounding Nicholas II ~ these kind of people need our prayers because they are lost! “
Maryanne had a major negative experience with the APTM and it’s principles when she reported to us that she had visited this site. http://www.bobatchison.co.uk/ She said, [i]“Saturday with nothing to do I spent the entire afternoon reading Sean’s website on Bob and them. …
Getting back to Sean’s site. I took lots of notes because there are lots of links and some things made me want to ask Bob himself what’s true and not true. For me Bob (until yesterday) he's always been easy to talk too sometimes yes he can be cagey and even a grumpy bear but if I’ve ever had a question about something relating to Nicholas and Alexandra he usually gave me an answer.
Yesterday, FA (Rob) wrote: “…Bob is more concerned with accuracy than his ego. If evidence shows he made a mistake, he is the first to recognize it and be glad of the corrections. I've seen it a hundred times.
…Bob said the links to the documents some of them were fake and the person he was in a lawsuit with was trying to humiliate him cause he said he won and she lost. I thought ok, yes I bought his answer cause I don't know but some of the things that his attorney filed and he said things I remember from his emails to me weren't true and when I said, "But Bob I remember you sent me an email that said something different" he got mad at me and told me that he can see that I am not his friend and I am only there to cause him problems. All I wanted to know was the truth. He threatened to call my parents and involve them and out of his paranoia and my surprise he did!”
LyliaM had this reaction to Maryanne’s experience when she said, “Bob clearly has some major problems and what he did was an incredible violation on many different levels. People with nothing to hide don't behave as he did. I feel sorry for him, because he's on a very bad path that's not going to lead him to enlightenment, but I am also very angered by the innocent people he's hurting in his egomania. I find the way he instantly turned on you when you confronted him with his own words very chilling. He's a sick man, and I would steer clear of him,”
About this point in time I started to post in this thread and I said about what I had seen here, “So far I have seen two basic sources of information backing the things that have been said about Rob, Bob and Company. One is the this-is-what-happened-to-me source of information. And the Second is, this is what I found published in court documents regarding Oma and Bob. Given these sources, well Bob can talk until he is blue in the face and won’t get anywhere in a court. Much of what has been said I personally have experienced also, just not in the APTM forum. http://www.omahamou.com/ there right along with Oma’s (Well OK, so it is inside her exhibits, still you can go read it if you want to. Note: Go to the “NEWS” section.) My point is that one cannot sue over this-is-what-happened-to-me, as it is your own personal experience. Now drawing conclusions might be a problem. This is what Rob and Bob did against Oma, they were not happy with just stating this-is-the-facts according to this court record or that. Or this is what we have heard from this source or that. They drew their own conclusions and published those as fact. Which is where they opened themselves up for trouble.”
Still is seems that most of us congregated here in this thread because of shared experiences and similar trauma. Penny seems to have expressed best and first when she said, “I think it's been natural to sort of congregate and share traveler's tales about that place.” Elena maria vidal, agreed when she said, ”I do think we all needed to vent a little about the AP boards and this has been a safe place to do it, because some of us have been really hurt there.” As did LyliaM with, “I do, … feel that new posters, who have generally come here after having been abused "over there," have an understandable need to express their frustration, hurt and outrage to people they know will understand. So, I say, let new members vent initially . . .” The problem is that we have had such a flood of new people that there has been no chance for anything else but healing. Not that Susan’s attack on Michael G, helped and Alix H, you could have come in a bit more softly with an introduction rather than what seemed to be an attack. Justin seems to agree also by saying, “…what have we let our self into by expressing our frustrations and our experiences from certain people there? That is, How do we know it is safe to express ourselves here, is there any place that they can not reach? I am learning that once a lie is created it has no way to live unless it grows even bigger, that the only way to cover up a lie is to hide it with an even bigger one. As I learn about the capacity and willingness of some to use lies as a weapon, well I wonder is there any place that one is safe to express a free and open opinion involving the Romanovs? … all the wounded are gathering in safe havens such as this forum to lick our wounds and heal…”
Yes I found some name calling, but not all that much, things such as “idiotic and insulting (and worthless) thread” and “I cannot believe you are an admin. You are the most UNPROFESSIONAL admin ever, and you truly suck at your job.” Or “classless, close-minded little folks whose lives revolve around visiting the site 500 times a day to ridicule and denigrate others, after having read a few books that they can't even be troubled to cite correctly.” But considering that this is either quoting what was said to someone, or expressing personal feelings in response to something, well words expressed in reaction are judged by courts much less harshly than cold cool deliberate slander.
As to if this is slanderous, well Keith seems to have wrapped that up with this comment, “Due to some wonderful investigative journalists and private investigators, everything either Bob or Rob said to anyone, (and under every name he or Rob hid behind), about Oma was documented, researched and tracked. So, friends. After a long spell of not really knowing who to trust or what to reveal I am now donning the war cry of Londoners and the world with respect to terrorism and encouraging others to come back to post here without fear.” And I agree with Penny when she said, “I do understand the need to "recover" a bit and to share traveler's tales of that place -- but I think it important not to wallow in it.” Which seems to bring us to the present time.
Well except that while I was reading all the old stuff, new stuff popped up. It really seems that a tender point has been found judging from all the recent posts. And while I can agree with Alix H in principle I don’t find that the responses and comments here were all that hateful in consideration of shared experiences. Expressions of personal experiences and feelings over those experiences, Yes, but I do not find carefully thought out expressions of hate toward anyone. Frustrations galore, certainly, however, I suspect that it all has to do with your point of view. I would expect that friends of Bob and Rob would not look at this at all kindly, and would in fact expect them to react as Alix H has, and the fact that Alix H first read this thread and posted here seems to confirm that possibility. That one is a friend of Rob or Bob is certainly not a crime in any sense of the word, everyone needs friends. And I see no reason that such a person could not be welcomed here as this is a place where more than one point of view can be tolerated. But then again I would expect that before judging that one would research why what was said, was said. I hope that it was just shock that brought out Alix’s initial comments and that meaningful dialog and an exchange of points of view could still occur. Try putting yourself in to the mindset of those who were hurt and came here for healing; is it any wonder that they expressed feelings of frustration and outrage?
People’s personal experiences are not slanderous, although their experiences may not be ones that you want to hear. Still they are that persons experiences, and as such very important to that person, and the expressing of them to a sympathetic audience is highly therapeutic to all concerned. As such I feel that those who need this therapy can and should continue to express themselves here in this part of the forum. I see no reason why what happens here should be considered a detraction from the rest of the site, which I am still wading through, and still do not have a real opinion on, other than vague romantic wishes, but I am learning. But rather like an activity that is going on in one part of town, while you with a different need and interest experience a totally different activity clear across town. So for those who want more discussion of Anastasia, well there are threads for that, for those who need to heal, then this is where you need to be until you heal.
posted by Sandman at 4:02 PM
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